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Tune in as Jessica and Brandon sit down with former NFL athlete and Super Bowl winner, André Brown. Andre’s story is much more than touchdowns and trophies. From childhood dreams, to NFL reality, Andre details how he navigated the influx of money joining the NFL, bad investment, the missteps of a trusted financial advisor and the good advice he got along the the way. Balancing dreams with financial realities, Andre’s story is a must-listen for anyone interested in the intersection of sports, finance, and life beyond the game.
Kevin Booth. He's an office alignment. He graduated from Brown, set me down. I was like, what are you doing? You out here, you're not first round. I saw you out eating dinner. You had, like you had all odds of rods Dre. You're not even starting. Like you're not even starting. Like what are you doing? You need to save this money.
Speaker 2:I was like, well, well, it's gonna be nobody Like no, he saw you he saw you.
Speaker 1:It's like no, until you start starting like a football game at running back buddy. You always use call me buddy, but you're not, you are not it, you are not it. So you have to manage what you spend. I was like all right.
Speaker 2:Hey everyone, welcome to the Sugar Daddy podcast. I'm Jessica and I'm Brandon, and we're the Norwoods, a husband and wife team here to demystify the realm of dollars so it all makes sense while giving you a glimpse into our relationship with money and each other. We are so glad you're here. Let's get started.
Speaker 3:Our content is intended to be used, and must be used, for informational purposes only. It is very important to do your own analysis before making any investment based upon your own personal circumstances. You should take independent financial advice from a licensed professional in connection with, or independently research and verify any information you find in our podcast and wish to rely upon, whether for the purpose of making an investment decision or otherwise.
Speaker 4:Babe what are we going to talk about today?
Speaker 2:So this is really funny. It's my favorite subject of all times football. We're talking about football today and for those of you who know even just the slightest thing about me, you know she knows absolutely nothing about. I know nothing about football, could not care less, and I may or may not be known to have, accidentally, in a meeting with lots of people, including a former D1 athlete, have referred to the Super Bowl as the season finale of football. Yep, yep, that happened. It's a true story. I could not think of the word Super Bowl, so I called it the season finale of football. But that's what we're talking about today.
Speaker 4:Now, she is very good for going to a football game and joining the festivities of a football game or Super Bowl party, whatever it may be, but if you're asking her any questions about the sport itself or the game that we're watching, that's always time.
Speaker 2:It's. You know, I grew up in Europe. It's not a thing there. I find the game to be painfully long.
Speaker 4:That's also an excuse, because you don't know that. You don't know anything about soccer either.
Speaker 2:So well, you know it is what it is. But that does not take away from the fact that I'm really excited about our guests today because, as Brandon mentioned, I do love a good tailgate, I love a social setting. I will be there if you invite me, and if anybody ever has tickets to the Super Bowl, I would love to go. And today we are talking to Mr Andre Brown, who has actually won a Super Bowl, which is crazy. How many people can say that they've won a Super Bowl? Well, I always say there's like 1% of the population.
Speaker 4:I think less than 1% of the population has ever been a professional athlete. And then, obviously, of that 1%, it's just like some people have actually won a Super Bowl.
Speaker 2:Are you wearing your ring, Andre?
Speaker 1:I am not.
Speaker 2:Do you know where it is currently?
Speaker 1:I do know where that is, when the dresser at the house so crazy spot of anything is just sitting there.
Speaker 2:Just sitting there collecting dust. Got it Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I will have to bring it out.
Speaker 2:I'll bring it out to see it one day.
Speaker 1:On the time, like if it's a Super Bowl party, I'll wear it. If I'm trying to, you know, impress a customer or something, I'll wear it out.
Speaker 4:I would do the same thing.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah. Well we are so excited to have you. Andre, thank you for being on with us. We're not going to actually talk about the game of football today, so you all better stay with us, do not tune out. If you're like me and you're like football, what? But we are going to get into the money, the contracts. We want to hear all of that. Right, we're going to really dig in. So we're excited to have you. I'm going to get into this bio so that everybody knows who we're talking to, and then we're going to get into these questions. So we are here today with Andre Brown. He is a retired American football running back Don't know what that position is who played in the NFL for seven seasons. Andre attended North Carolina State University, where he played football for four years and graduated with a degree in business management in 2009. He was a standout player for the Wolfpack and finished his college career with 2,539 rushing yards and 22 touchdowns. I do know what a touchdown is, so congratulations. In 2009, the New York Giants selected him in the fourth round of the NFL draft. He played for the Giants for five seasons and was with them when he won the Super Bowl in 2012 against the New England Patriots. He has also played for the Indianapolis Colts in Houston, texas Texans, and he finished his NFL career with 1,966 rushing yards, 21 rushing touchdowns and 36 receptions for 264 yards and two touchdowns. That's a lot of numbers, my friend You're like. Don't take me back there. After retiring from the NFL, he worked as a sports broadcaster and has been involved in charitable organizations, including the Boys and Girls Clubs of America. Since retiring, he has taken on his second career in technology, his love of computers and working for some of the big names like Red Hat and IBM. He is currently an account manager for a startup called Gray Matter, where his focus is on the Department of Defense. He lives in the Raleigh area with his son, sebastian, and enjoys coaching his son's football team, no pressure, fishing together and opportunities to mentor youth through sports. That was a lot. How's that sound to you, andre?
Speaker 1:It sounds okay. It's still some more that I should have done. I could do, you know.
Speaker 2:Should have won a Koda. Don't live there. Don't live there.
Speaker 1:It has me smiling, though, you know, because it was tough, even like I don't like bragging on myself, but hey, I guess it came across, okay, yes, no, it hit and listen.
Speaker 2:you know the fact that you are so humble and you, you know, would never lead with guess what guys. I don't want a Super Bowl, which I think, if I want a Super Bowl, I 100% would lead with at all times, and you are just not that guy at all. So yeah even getting Andre to write a bio was like okay, are you going to get us that bio? Pushed it to the deadline, like oh come on less than 100% Like this is. This is big, you should be, able to talk about that.
Speaker 4:I was never a football player. I, if anyone that knew me in high school. I played half a season my senior year of high school and I was like this is not for me.
Speaker 2:You started football senior year.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I just tried it. I tried it before.
Speaker 2:That's really bizarre. That makes no sense.
Speaker 4:But anyways, like you know someone who did play other sports, you know to make it to that level, you know how good you have to be, because I know plenty of people that were really good in their sports and did not make it to that level. So in order to make it to that level you do, it's not just a matter of being good, you have to also work extremely hard. So it's just such a very small percentage of people that are able to make it there.
Speaker 2:So did it come naturally to you, Andre?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would say yeah because you know it was a gold of mine right, and you know it kind of just took on its own mode that I was just hey, I'm Andre this football player, and then eventually it got me to where I want to be. So I kind of always envisioned myself being in the NFL. But making it and then being a superstar was like totally difficult, but it felt comfortable. I felt like I needed to be here and my dream came true as a young and to out there and be out there playing football for a living. So yeah, I guess.
Speaker 4:This way you know, running back is the name, is kind of the name of the.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm sure he did a lot of running.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 2:I mean, I can put context clues together, but don't ask me where you are on the field. That's not what this podcast is about, guys. That is true, ok, let's, we're going to. We're going to get to all the important stuff. Take us back, andre. We like to start our podcast with understanding your first money memory. Take us there.
Speaker 1:OK, so I'm eight or nine years old and I'm living in Baltimore at the time and you know I have my friends, who's Andrew and I think it's last thing. The other guy was Eric is a twin, whatnot, and you know it kind of in Baltimore, you know it's inner city and you know my friends mom was dating I wouldn't say it like a gangster, almost, so they are on that. You put a year on it, yeah you know, he had some money that was laying out in their living room and we all went to the money and we was like, oh, look at all this money, and we took the money.
Speaker 2:You stole the drug money. They stole the drug money. Is that what you're telling us right now?
Speaker 1:Yes, I got it, we did. You know that it was right before school, so we had, like, I had like three hundred dollars right in that. That's a lot of money. It was a lot of money, so it was eight or nine year old? Yeah, exactly. So my first thing we all went to Stop Shop and Save was a grocery store and I'm buying pop tarts and all this stuff and like all the snacks. I'm like I'm just a bunch of like snacks and stuff and I'm taking to school, I'm passing it out. Just saying that there I'm a known step. My mom finds out that, like my teacher, my teacher found out that I had like all this money hanging out. Oh, my mom, I get home. My mom was like, where did you get all this money? Blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:That's good parenting right there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like what is going on. And I told her where I got it from. My mom said, oh no, she the money that I spent. I only spent like what Twenty twenty five dollars out of it and I was originally planning to go to the mall to get some Jordans, to never got the Jordans because I had to get the money back. So my mom took the remaining of the money and then went and got like twenty twenty five dollars and said like, and I had, and she made me walk over to her, give the guy this money back. And I just got in a lot of trouble and yeah, and I was like, ok, I have to, either, I need to make my own money. And my mom went on this whole thing, like you don't take money from there, you don't. If you need pop, talk so I can buy your pop talk. You know I can buy you the Jays. You're not going to get the Jays, you're going to be one one time out of the, out of the year or Christmas or something like that, on my birthday. But that was my first experience with money stealing it it's in somebody for it and just realized that oh, you need it and it's better safe to make your own money.
Speaker 4:If you're, I probably wouldn't. I would probably say it's probably not safe to steal money from gangsters. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:Not safe because we didn't want to know what was going to happen if we he found out what that money was missing.
Speaker 2:So right, you know it's really funny, though that's my first money memory too. I stole my uncle's money off the dresser. It was only changed and he's not a drug dealing gangster, but I did steal the money. Obviously, I got in trouble, had to give it back, and that's when I was like nope, I'm always going to make my own money. So, like I, yeah, I love that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's a stealing part but that's not my first memory but I can really I can relate to you on the Jordan's part because one of my earlier money memories was when I wanted a pair of Jordan's first pair ever had and my mom was not going to pay for him. She had a certain amount that she was going to pay for and anything above that I had to pay myself. And that was the longest time it took me to make a decision on a purchase. I was like do I get on? Do I get, like you know, something that's cheaper, end up getting the Jordans. But I think that definitely filters into how long it takes me to process, you know, sometimes the most simple purchases.
Speaker 2:A long time? The answer is a long time, yeah, so I'm glad we have that in common, because we now we're both coming from that place of I'm going to make my own money, right, so walk us through your early football career, right, let's talk what? Middle school, high school, and when did you realize that you were good, like better than the rest?
Speaker 1:Well, when I was young I was always overweight, right, I couldn't play because I was overweight at my age. And then, you know, I still went out and I still play with the guys that I couldn't, like you know, go to a football game and play with. And you know, I finally got one time to play and it was like out of state, and then I went for like three touchdowns and like had a bunch of tackles. I was like, oh, I can, I'm actually pretty good. So my cousin came and we moved down to North Carolina because originally from Baltimore down to North Carolina, and I went to another camp in Greenville, ecu. I went to ECU football camp and I got like MVP of that and I was like, oh, ok, so it's starting to, the confidence is building and I'm actually starting to do it. And then in high school they switched my positions from wide receiver to running back and I ended up breaking like a state record and stuff like that. I was like, ok, I'm good. And then I went to NC State and that's no, the all the offers came in. And then I was like, all right, I'm going to stay in state and go to NC State. And yeah, it was just, it just came naturally to me, just running into people, I guess right.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean, as someone who plays sports, I can understand the difference between, like a natural athlete and someone who had to work at it. So like, kind of like, the difference between my brother and I, my younger brother, were, like you know, we're polar opposites I'm six three, he's five seven, but he's a natural athlete, like basically any sport that he touches. He was, he picked up right away.
Speaker 2:And bowling. Don't, don't bowl against him, y'all.
Speaker 4:You know, I'm certain but for me, like I was good at sports but I wasn't natural, I had to work at it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean with everything you do have to work, because then you know I did get a little cocky, you know, in college and high school, because you know I felt like I didn't have to work for it. But in the end, you know, definitely working in on top of your talent definitely got me today. And I felt I will say that because I say I got hurt in college like twice and you know my numbers started to fall because they do these little things where you know they give you a grade coming out of college to be like which round you're going to go in. And like my freshman year was like first to second. In my sophomore year I got hurt like third and fourth. Then they just my junior year got hurt again. It was like fourth and fifth. So it kept my my value was going down the longer I stayed in college and you know you don't want to get drafted in the late rounds, you want to get drafted in the beginning rounds, like the first, second, because that's where all the money was at. So yeah, you know the ability to work hard made me notice that I had the opportunity to be in the NFL and I just kind of just like you know, with the injuries and everything that happened to me, it just developed me like my routine of getting up making sure my leg is straight and doing all the rehab stuff so I can potentially be in the NFL. Even though I slipped all the way down to the fourth round, it was still a good, a good time and a good learning experience.
Speaker 2:You know why did you choose I'm assuming my reference, of course, is the blind side because it's favorites. So is at this point. You know you're a star in high school, breaking state records and what the coaches are just like flooding to you at this point and they're like trying to tell you about why their programs are the best. Walk us through a little bit of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my first. My first offer was from Duke. You know, great school but terrible football.
Speaker 2:Not football. I'm pretty sure I've fallen in a better Duke football game before.
Speaker 1:That was like my first time. I'm like, ok, I'm entertained by Duke because you know. And then my mom was like, oh, if you get a degree from Duke, you know how far you can go to Santa Therese. I'm like, yeah, but I would never win a college football game, I'm not going to win. So that's kind of be on the backburners. And then like my second one was like Florida State and then Auburn, but I chose NC State because I like Chuck. That time Chuck was Chuck a model, was a football coach at the time, very charismatic, used to wear, like doching, a bar and glasses and be all up in your face. I was like, ok, I can get down with that. And then also, me choosing NC State was because, you know, I wanted to be an engineer, computer science and at that time, well, still, they like top five engineering schools and nation or something like that. But that changed too, because I was good at football and I couldn't manage the hours of being an engineer computer science and they made me change my major.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and we had somebody that you can talk to. If you still want to go into engineering, it's a 16 week course. We can put you in touch.
Speaker 4:OK, and that's also the time from that you were getting at state. Those were coming off of the years of Philip Rivers being there, right, right. So state it was. You know, I had a really big hype around them because they were doing really well.
Speaker 2:OK, and it was like rain, philip Rivers, like they're going to be a future all the fame quarterback. Ok, obviously I didn't know that, thank you. Ok, so you chose NC State. When did you know that you were going to get drafted?
Speaker 1:I didn't. To be honest with you, I didn't. I mean, I had all these like charts and all the media and all that stuff would say that you know, he's the third best running back. That's coming out and I kind of like went into all that, like thinking that it was like all true. But once the team started, like we had like visits, like we had like a visit San Diego or visit Arizona and these are all other football teams in the state. So I was visiting those teams and they'd be like, ok, so we might grab you in a second or third round. Well, we might do this. So it's a lot of like maybe could have what should have, like OK, who's going to draft me? And like when New York drafted me, I didn't even have a meeting with them.
Speaker 2:Like so really I don't know where for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was out of nowhere, because if anybody, I thought I thought I was going to go to San Diego. I thought I was going to be a charger because you know Philip Philip Rivers was there. He loved me. I had a visit out there. Lt was talking about well, ladainium Thomas, he's a running back. Yeah, I never talked about.
Speaker 2:OK, you don't have to keep calling that out.
Speaker 1:So he was. He was on his way to I think he's by the Interfere agency or something like that, and you know that was like. You know I loved it out there, I love the weather and like oh, this is right, but draft they come. I go through like the first three rounds, they get picked. I had this big party and it was like so humiliating and I had my whole family there at the at the Baltimore Inter Harbor, like expecting me to go in this first or second round. Didn't do it. And then I didn't get drafted until I got mad. I told everybody go home, I'm going home. I loaded up my loader at the truck and I'm driving down the highway Back to North Carolina. Then I got my phone call, told me I was going to be a new York giant. So we pulls over and like we let the wings out and we all 95. Like yeah, I'm like I wanted to celebrate this From the highway and my cousin, my mom, like we don't care, he just happy for you. I'm like all right. So yeah, if it didn't know where I was going to go, ended up in New York and ended up being a great place for me to get drafted to because you know the city and you know so many different places to go and be a part of, especially as a giant, it was just, it was just amazing time to.
Speaker 2:So you're 22,. You're 22,. You get drafted in the fourth round. Didn't go as planned, but still you're part of the less than 1% right. What is the contract? Walk us through the numbers.
Speaker 1:The contract was four year deal for $3.5 million with a $465,000 signing bonus.
Speaker 2:You're 22. You have $465,000 right now, basically with 3. Something million coming. What does that feel like? What is going through your mind? Do you remember?
Speaker 1:I was like I think my first check, because they did it in installments. My first check was like just like 35 grand and I went. I was like, okay, I looked at it. I'm like, all right, let's go to the bank. I went to the bank. I'm like, can I get this in cash? No, I was in cash.
Speaker 2:I was like no, I'm like, oh, I'm like no, sir, we don't do that.
Speaker 1:Because it was right by the bank, by the stadium too. And she's like all you football players come here with these big checks and expect me to see it all in cash. I was like I just wanted to see my money. She was like, no, we're going to put a hold on this and you can get about. She only gave me like five grand and put everything else in the bank. I was like, okay, that ain't going to explain, because I was going to take the money and go do something silly. Thank God she dead. But yeah, that amount of money came first mistake. I bought a new Range Rover.
Speaker 2:Of course. Why would you not?
Speaker 1:I know it was just a terrible car too, by the way.
Speaker 2:I would like to say when you came over for brunch a few weeks ago, you were not in a Range Rover.
Speaker 1:I'm here, I'm here, I'm here, I'm here, I'm here, I'm here, I'm here.
Speaker 4:Oh, no, it's another car, it's other Exactly, it only shot.
Speaker 2:Those aseast vureiri too? Yeah, and is it Matthew McConaughey two, or is that Lincoln? That's Lincoln, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, so you've, you've grown with the cars, okay.
Speaker 4:But also like at 22 years old. Majority of 22 year olds don't have access to that amount of money. No it's not. It's not as it like. You know you grew up with money something different for a 22 year old who's grown up with money. He used to see in that it's like almost overnight. You know you go from. You know quote unquote. You know normal meager. You know upbringings to basically being a millionaire, you know a millionaire, you know, contract, so like that's I, like that's just, you know, that's just crazy to me to think about. You know that you are, these young athletes are, you know, being thrown into the situation without really any preparation on what to do with the money, which is why I can really understand going and buying a new Range Rover, you know, yeah.
Speaker 1:And it was. It was just crazy because it was a lot of money and you know I'm thinking it was going to be there forever, right, and I put a down payment on my grandmother's house. I put a down payment on my mom's house, um, and then all that started doing it away. And after when, when we get the signing bonus, like over the contract we have, we have we get the money in time periods, right. So I got that check in July and then the season starts and that's when we get paid weekly from our regular contract. But in come, january and February, you don't get paid. It's like, okay, we paid you all for, basically when you was working throughout the season. And then you have that time from like February, if we're good no, we weren't good that year because it was February and we were home, so we weren't, we wasn't getting paid. And then you have those remaining months March, april major that you're not getting paid, but you still got to be responsible and still go up to the stadium and be a part of the team and whatnot, and you won't get paid again until the end of the season. I mean until they season start.
Speaker 2:So so To really allocate. Yes Be mindful that you're going to have what? Six months with no paycheck.
Speaker 1:Yep, so yeah, and that that that took a toll on me too, because I was still young and I was doing everything in the season. I was spending like, I was getting checks during the all season which I should Like, I was like doing like I was going let's go here, let's go here, oh, I got it If we were out and I was in Raleigh, hey, everybody is on me Like doing like all that stuff. I was that guy, that guy like come on.
Speaker 2:Celebrating at all turns Now like, like.
Speaker 4:So when you, you know you first get into the league, was there anyone that was like hey, andre, keep this in mind that during the off season you're not receiving checks Like. Did anyone even like? Bring that to your attention.
Speaker 2:No, even like you know, players you know, your quote. Unquote colleagues, Nobody.
Speaker 1:Not the first year, not the first year and not until the second year, when we had some new guys come in the veterans and Keith Booth, kevin Booth. I said Keith Booth, kevin Booth, he's an office alignment, he graduated from Brown, set me down. I was like what are you doing? You out here, you're not first round. I saw you out eating dinner. You had, like, you had a lot of odds, dre, you're not even starting Like, you're not even a Like, what are you doing? You need to save this money. I'm like well, well, it's going to be it. No, buddy, like, no, you, he was a he saw you. He saw you Like no, you, until you start starting a football game at running back, buddy. You always use call me buddy Buddy, you are not, you are not it, you are not it. So you have to manage what you spend. I was like I think that was the last that whole year I was sitting there watching my money just at a third. But you know, once the needs kicked in, saw a new truck or a new car. That's what I wanted. He's like why are you in this? He always used to be on me First four years was always on me Like you're doing something. You're like you're doing stuff that doesn't. That's not you. Like you're trying to beat this New York flashy guy no, you're from Greenville, buddy. Like you, calm all that down, I'm like.
Speaker 2:OK no.
Speaker 4:When I tell you about offensive linemen because Jess had a just at a previous job, that she was working as a manager of a team One of the guys in our team was a former D1 football player at Penn State and offensive linemen, and I was like I'm telling you just like my brief knowledge of, like you know, based on positions, people's personalities I was like this guy is going to be a star and he's going to be looking for you to tell him what did you want to do, and as long as you are able to verbally tell him what it is you need him to do, he's going to excel at it and you're not going to have any issues.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's how he was. He just needed direction and then he executed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'd say the offensive linemen are probably the smartest people on the field On the team. I put them on the team.
Speaker 2:Why is that? What is that about why?
Speaker 4:Well, one of the position that is for the vast majority of the public, I would say, is overlooked. It's like you. Like you can't majority people that just like watch football. Like you know, casually, they can't name star offensive linemen.
Speaker 2:It's not one of the positions Humble position.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's a humble and a very. You have to be very smart because it's different. I mean, our playbooks used to be like this big, and then the offensive line has to know everyone's position who's pulling, who's not, who's coming on a blitz, what the defense is telling us. It's like those guys. I mean, I always ended up hanging with them because they they knew everything about the offense and and plus, they were blocking for me too. So, yeah, and most of the time, even like in college, all my, you know most of my office aligned in college like doctors and stuff like that, and computer science guys like I'll. Just they were always smart Like it's, like that's. I don't know, I don't know, it's just how it is.
Speaker 2:So did you listen to the advice? Did you? Did any of us sink in?
Speaker 1:It did. It took in my third year. It did.
Speaker 2:Okay, so after you spent a big chunk, I spent a big chunk.
Speaker 1:I spent a huge amount of money.
Speaker 4:So, with you spending a bunch of money real quick, what is like the one purchase that you would deem like your worst purchase during that time period? Hmm, I had a couple.
Speaker 1:I had a couple because I stayed in a shop, so I got rid of that. Then I got a G-Wagon.
Speaker 2:That was that car, but that was Did you say you loved that car?
Speaker 1:I loved the G-Wagon. The G-Wagon was a very expensive car. It was great, but I would just say all my cars. That's why I don't. I wasn't even a car guy Like you-.
Speaker 2:But there's such status, right? You see, a G-Wagon especially is like oh, that person has money.
Speaker 4:Also, the thing is, too, is that for like, especially for, like you know, the black community. Unfortunately, like you know, we've always been excluded from so many things, so when you do, often make it to a certain status you want, to Let people know. Kind of show people. This is what I'm at and one of the easiest way for you to show somebody a car Were you even driving.
Speaker 2:You were in New York.
Speaker 1:We were in New Jersey. Like New York, drives are basically New Jersey, right, so the facilities there, the stadium is in New Jersey. But I was like, yeah, I was driving because in the off season I would go from New York and I would go out and live in Fort Lauderdale, like in all seasons, like I spent my time in South Beach and doing all that. So I just shipped my car down there and then do my self beach thing, which was just blowing money, doing a bunch of silly stuff and just being a perfectly being called. Yeah, I was like it wasn't until my third year that I was like I shouldn't be stressing for cash and this is my contract year. That's what happened my third year. I was like because I was blowing through money, I made a couple of bad investments, so with that real quick, real quick.
Speaker 4:With that you hear obviously all these horror stories about professional athletes that come into contact with financial advisors, cpas and stuff of that nature. Did you have any of those negative interactions where those individuals unfortunately took advantage of your lack of financial literacy at that time?
Speaker 1:Yes, and that was the bad investment that we was in. I was invested in some apartment buildings in college station in Texas. Never seen it, didn't know what it was. He was like if you give me I think it was like 180,000. Right now You're gonna see the out, you're gonna see the flip of this and this and the there. And the bad thing about my first financial advisor he was kind of like a used car salesman. He had that vibe to him. But I felt loyal to him because when I was coming out of college he gave me like a lot of credit. He gave me some cash. He was paying for my training. He let me rent a car. I had this nice condo just at the third and I was like, oh, he looked out for me. Then he's gonna look out for me. Then he's like you won't get, I won't get any of this money unless you make a return. You get paid on a return for this money. Then I get a percentage of the return. So that ended up falling through. He had like I think about like 15, 16 guys that he like swindled money out of NFL could hold of. It Never got my money back because he didn't have it. He spent it on stuff and yeah, I was just hiding like 180 grand short of a bad investment that I thought that someone that I signed my name over to that was looking out that would just, I mean, you know, was in the house with my family, like you know, like.
Speaker 2:Who was he? Was he a family friend, or how did he get in contact?
Speaker 1:He was a guy that we met Cause, you know, at college, in college, some of these guys just come around and just hang around and if you got a high profile guy, they'd be like. Let me introduce you to blah blah At the time. Mario Williams was like another number one draft pick at this time and that was like he number one overall draft pick at state. So it was nothing but agents, financial advisors, like on our campus all the time, just like hey. He was like if you ever need anything, here's my number.
Speaker 2:So they're literally there like lurking ready to pound.
Speaker 4:The crazy part is that I think it's now even worse because you have NIL money now and they've made a likeness for these college kids. So it's even more integral that you know the financial literacy aspect, especially for these athletes that are, you know, going to go on to the next level, that they get it as soon as possible. And it's one of the parts of like my industry that I can't stand and like, if I catch wind of someone doing something wrong, I have no problems being a rat in that scenario because I don't want people to take advantage. You know people within my industry to take advantage of people in addition to just give our industry a bad name in general. You know, and that's why, like, I'm really big on the ways that I kind of tell people to like kind of see these things coming or like you know, I always say like basically too, like if you go with your gut, feeling like you were saying, like you were, like he felt kind of car salesy, I was like if you ever felt car salesy, like you'll probably need to listen to your gut and it's just not right. But in those scenarios you don't know man Like you were, like I said you were a young guy and he had other people in the NFL and you know he was giving you these things and helping you out and making you think that you know you should trust them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, building your trust and make you feel indebted, right Like if he's like putting you up. That was very strategic. It was strategic it was strategic.
Speaker 4:He wanted you to make you feel as though, like you owe him, right yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean even like, as far as you know, because everything because when I look at this creative, I'm looking back at it was like everything he was. It was like always like, hey, dre, we're going to this part, we're going to this club, we're going to this party, and it's like he was putting me in this like this light of where it's like, oh, this is how a professional athlete should be doing this, how I should be moving, I should be spending money here and doing this and that. And then it wasn't until Kevin was like man, that's not. I mean like, I know you you'll run it back and you're supposed to be a wild boy, but that ain't. You don't have to be on the scene in order to be a good football player or a good person. I'm like, okay, well, yeah, he was. He was different. That guy was different.
Speaker 2:Did your mom or any family members ever say like, hey, let's talk to somebody, even like let's go into the bank and get an advisor from Wells Fargo or Bank of America, anything like that?
Speaker 1:So you know, it is crazy how we, with my family right now, how we talk about money now and it's way different than what we talked about when it was 14, 15 years ago, especially when I had it. You know my mom, you know she was she just be like, ok, I guess this. I mean because you know I also I had like an ego to it. Right, you know I was selfish. I was, you know this, superstar in my mind After I was telling everybody what to do and she'd be like, ok, but she always second guessed everything that I did. She was like do you really need that? You know it's a, you don't need to go with the tie hole. Why you need to. She be like why you need to. I mean it's, it's up there, but it's. We're not going to have to go to the shop and fix the all that foreign stuff. You know what you're doing with this towel no pain, you can get it used. Then I want you to want a brand new. Like I'm not going to, I'm not, he's not listening to me, he's not listening to me. Walk away like that, which I will listen to.
Speaker 2:Right, is there? What other family members? Where did you have people just coming out the woodworks like me, I would.
Speaker 1:I would hear him and if it was something of valid, like I can see myself doing, I would give him the money because I everybody needed like Andre. I was the guy that was like Andre. Can I borrow this? Can I borrow that? Can I borrow?
Speaker 2:that, and you know at that point borrowing is not like you're not going to see that money again, it's giving.
Speaker 1:I'm giving it. I'm giving them the money and not going to see it at all.
Speaker 2:But I feel like you owed them Like was it like I owe you this for family and you had the guilt around it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, with, with, with, no doubt, like I felt, you know, even like I felt that it was my job to take care of my grandmother, grand, that grandmother, my granddad, in all her nine kids, in everybody that's under that. Oh, my goodness which is not, which is not at all. Like we weren't desperate, my mom's like. It's like a year that I was like going, like I was a hurt again and she was up there she was. We're not looking for you to do this. Like you know, we're not looking for you. I mean, if you got it, I'm thinking you have it. I'm not going to say no to the money.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you can get this to me. I'm going to take it, I'm going to use it wisely and do it this way, but we're not looking for you to do this. I'm looking for you to just be good and healthy and come to family reunions instead of doing something else. You know what I'm saying. So they had they, they were there, but they wasn't trying to put. You know, there, I don't know what I'm looking for Word to say, like trying to take control of my situation and make it so they can see the benefits of it. It was just like OK, if you're going to do that, we have some regrets, we don't want you to do it, but we're not going to tell you what to do. It's your money, is your, you got it, you earned it. What I wish? They would just grab me by the neck Like, no, yeah, that's what I wanted you to do, but no, I wasn't going to do that. Telling you something at that time was like talking to a brick wall and me running in my head, running my head into the wall Like I wasn't that you were bad. I was like OK.
Speaker 4:But one of the biggest misconceptions that a lot of people have about professional athletes and, like you know, them not being good with money and losing the money that they made, is that they think that they're just buying a bunch of stuff, and that's the reason why they're making bad purchases or spending outside their means and that's the reason why they lose their money. And that's not the number one reason. The number one reason is that they often are taking care of the rest of their family, like they're the ones that quote unquote, made it or made it out, and now they need to take care of everyone else and, like you said, you know, often you feel some speech like it's your job to do it, since you know these people will help you in various ways growing up and now in their family. Now you turn around, you're like I got to take care of them, and that's the number one reason. That's even not just professional athletes. It's actually statistically proven that you know, within the black community, the more education you have, the more money, the less net worth you actually tend to have. Reason being is that, since you're sometimes the first person with the college and you're making, you making good money, you are still taking care of everyone else and not just simply, you know, using your money for yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, and it's so public too, right, like I mean, you're freely talking about it now, but even back then it's like on every ESPN and you know sports channel, you know what these contracts are. So once the family or friends and your network find out, oh, he signed the contract for 3.8 million, you know four years nobody's like, oh, that's going to be divvied up and he's technically only getting paid out of six months out of the year, I was thinking like nobody cares.
Speaker 4:Taxes and and you're playing in New York, so in New York state taxes, new York City taxes, and then also people realize you're a millionaire. People don't realize too is that athletes tax situation is very complicated because you're taxed differently in all the different states that you also play in. So if you play a game in a different state, you're not being tax. Based on this, you know the tax is the best state for that game. And that's often why, like when you hear people like oh you know, this professional athlete is having a case against them in regards to tax evasion Most of the time, it's not because they purposely evaded taxes is that their tax situation is so complicated. And then when you have international stars who are playing in different countries, that makes it even more complicated.
Speaker 2:But you would think, with all of those facets in place, that the NFL would say, hey, here's a team of people, here's a team of advisors, here are people that are vetted, they're not corrupt, they're not slimy, you know car salesmen not saying you have to work with Bob, but, like, here's a team, have meetings, see who you vibe with. These are at least a starting point of people who can guide you to say, hey, this is what you should do at 22 years old, getting a $3 million contract, and now you're getting a check for $35,000 right out the gate. You've never seen that kind of money before and it's only going to grow from there. Right, and you win the Super Bowl. What does that look like? What happens when you win the Super Bowl? I need to know.
Speaker 1:Oh, I was a Super. Now in my head I don't even. I didn't even take one carry in the Super Bowl. People don't know that. I was only on special teams. So when we did that, I was a born of five superstar. Then you couldn't tell me nothing. You didn't tell me. You really thought I was Kiss the ring. Yeah, peyton man, you would have thought I was Eli Manning you know what I'm saying Because it was like oh, yeah, I am. I admit I made it. I got a ring. Just that in the third, like you can't tell me nothing. So in the city was just buzzing because you know my, it was my turn to do the fact that Brandon Jacobs was about to leave because we were going to be in the. They was having a contract negotiation problems that stalled, so they released Brandon and then it was me and a mod, so it was going to. I was going to, like, replace Brandon and I was having a good camp and I balled throughout the season, I mean all season. So I was like, okay, now it's my time. The Super Bowl was like, yeah, but I didn't play in it. I mean, I only played on special teams. But after the Super Bowl they normally, like you know contract, that team has to get reassembled because you know, new contracts is in the third. But that was my actually my Super Bowl, because it was like, oh, now I can finally play and actually get my my time to shine. So it's super, was great. But the year, the next year, it was like I'm starting and then everybody's drafted to be on fantasy and stuff like that. So I'm like, yeah, I'm made it and then that's gonna be cool. Yeah, it was, but do you what? Is there an?
Speaker 2:automatic check that hits your bank account when you're regardless of your starting or not playing you on the Super Bowl what happens to your bank account?
Speaker 1:Okay, so in the NFL there's no more base. I mean your your contracts out of the minute. It's like it's tournament play, so each game you play is a certain amount of money that the NFL gives you. So it's like first round is like 60,000. Second round is like 120 K and then you got to play off and then it's super well. So all together you end up with like 300,000 together If you win the Super Bowl, if you win it.
Speaker 2:Okay that seems very low.
Speaker 1:It might be, it might be numbers out, so yeah, but I I'm thinking it's not, it's not higher than half a million dollars, because even the star athletes and the star athletes Like they don't it's all because it's tournament play and it's just, it's like the same. So paying you, paying you the check, and it's not, it's not in your contract. Now you might have something in your contract that say like if, say, if you're a quarterback, if you win these a number of Playoffs, games and make it so it's superbowl that you get a bonus, but different tips built into the contract, yeah, but if it's just us, the regular guys that don't have that in that contract is just here's your base pay or here's a 60 grand or 120 grand that you get for each time you win a game. So yeah, that's the difference, that's the money that you get. But after superbowl you do have endorsements. So the Nike I got a Nike, I had a Nike endorsement, but it wasn't money, it was all merch. Oh, and like every month I have like 15 grand so that we use that. I'm not gonna lie, it came clutch because I was. I was the man for like at least about five years Giving all the Christmas gifts to my family, because it was just you're like shoes, you get shoes.
Speaker 2:It's like Oprah, you're just, it's funny.
Speaker 4:Okay, because I did a year of law school up in Rhode Island and you know I didn't finish law school, didn't have been a coming attorney. But, um, after my first year of law school, I actually worked at the Reebok headquarters, which at the time was in Kent, massachusetts, and this is the same Massachusetts and this is the same time when Reebok was a pair for all the professional sports. All right, this is back in 2006, and when I was working at I was working at, like, the Reebok store, the concept store within the headquarters, and so the only people that came in were people that worked at Reebok or were professional athletes and we would literally get like a list, like a list of paper, like roster of all the different professional athletes that were gonna come through that day and how much they had available to spend. So interesting, these like people just come in there. Like you know, I met a few thousand.
Speaker 2:You could not pay me to spend $15,000 on the Nike website. What in the world would I?
Speaker 4:like I met. I met Peyton Manning that way because he came in.
Speaker 1:Same way. It's a lot you can buy up there. There's a lot, especially with you know. You know, I mean like it by culture. Yeah, like Nike's air forces, like the Nike booth.
Speaker 4:I wanna drink that cold. There you go. No, I want to touch on something you said as far as, like you use the term like, you know, the quarterback, the star, compared to us regular guys. I think in the, you know, in professional sports, it's so very interesting where you can have, you know, peers that are in vastly different pay scales, like a quarterback, especially in football nowadays, you have a certain quarterback where he's making 40 million dollars a year and then you have, like, a Another starter who's making maybe a million dollars a year and, like, being in the you know the confines of like you with your peers, where there's such a variance in how much you're getting paid. Like, how does that, how does that even work? How do you feel about that? Because, like, I think that's where, like, a lot of, maybe, like the individuals who spend more than they should come from, because they're hanging out with, like you know, somebody else that is making significantly more than they are, but you guys are, so you guys are so peers.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, it was crazy because my my locker just run through the story it might. This is how I know that it was different levels to it. My my locker was next to Eli's locker and Every payday in the NFL was every Wednesday back then. I guess, right, so all the checks, well, even if you got the direct deposit, they still put the paper check on your seat in front of your locker. So you know, it's my, my first year. I'm like, oh yeah, look at that, my check. It did Eli. I like Eli and let me see your check. He's like why you want to do that.
Speaker 2:He's like you're gonna hear feelings hurt.
Speaker 1:Exactly what happened. You're gonna you're not gonna want to see my check. So I'm like all right, I don't want to see your check. And then he was like all right, I mean you just, you can, you can look at it, but it's only motivation to purpose. On it, I'm like, all right, I'm not gonna get quarterback money ever, but okay, in Every week his check I think it was like 250 grand a week. I'm like what are you doing with all that? I'm not doing nothing with it sitting in my bank.
Speaker 4:Manning strike me as people that don't spend money.
Speaker 1:That was the great that. I mean that was also a learning process too, because Eli was making all this money like he had a big watch, he had the Hublot deal, he had the Toyota deal like in New York if you're like, you can make a ton of money off endorsements off of the field, and Eli had billboards everything he's like. My truck now never paid for Highlander it's great chart. I just got to return it over six, six thousand miles and plus they get. I get to do whenever you, every quarter or something like that. His watches, like everything was different and I would just look at my little check and I'd be like I gotta make the stretch, I gotta get Eli money. I get Eli money if I don't see me getting Eli money, but it's from the top of the list like Eli's. The victors did the Justin tux, the Osteys, the old guys, paychecks was totally different and they never wanted to pay for anything and that was.
Speaker 4:That's how you stay rich.
Speaker 1:No, I know, I know that. I know that cuz we go out, there was like oh, drink on it.
Speaker 2:And you never said no, you never said your paycheck is 16 times mine.
Speaker 1:No, even when it was like we had this game. I was playing with Eli and we we was playing this game called cam jam. It's like you told Frisbee in it and you slap it in or what not? Yeah, so he started betting me like, and I got up like 10 grand. I'm like, oh yeah, he's like, bet it all back, like I don't want to, I can walk away with, take grand. It's like, okay, I started playing again and I Like 20 grand. Playing cam jam like this is ridiculous. I'm like what am I doing? That's exactly. I see another one of my players. He was like you know why you never gamble with him? I was like well, he makes way more money than you and he can just Just your gambling way, your money. But he can go in and match your money and then take your money and then you won't even be able to see your money ever again. I End up losing. I have to pay it. He's like all right, you don't have to pay me, but I do want five hundred dollars in ones. I don't know what he did with that. So he ended up putting because I he made me go out my way, get five hundred dollars in ones and, and he made me put it. He put it in the locker and it's set there for the whole season. Just so that you see it. Just that I was like that money, I don't even, I don't even need that Gas money right there, you know the G wagon, you know we take that 93 man, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's money right there, you just said it, no.
Speaker 2:I love it.
Speaker 4:So I want to kind of like, you know, fast forward now to the end of your career. You're now retiring from the NFL and you were 28 years old, correct? Yeah, 28. You know, for most people their careers really aren't even starting to take off at 28, mm-hmm, when, let alone, you know, for you as a professional athlete, everything that you would work from to that point is now You're done, you're done with it. Like, what was that like, as far as you know, that transition out of the NFL?
Speaker 2:I'm gonna. I want to caveat one thing not everybody retires from the NFL, so what are the stipulations to retire from the NFL? And then what does that mean for you financially?
Speaker 1:You have to put in. You got to file your paperwork to retire, so officially I am. Technically I've never filed my paperwork, but but they do. I mean I think the NFL Automatically, you know, three years out, because three to five years they cut off the insurance after your final day of playing in a NFL game. So you still insured for like three, four years. They cover that and depending on your injury, you can have. Me and my son are Ensured for the rest of my life. If I would have another kid he wouldn't be in on the NFL insurance. But you know that you're there. But I Forgot the first part of the question you said.
Speaker 2:Is there like could somebody who played one season in the NFL be retired from the NFL, or are there Levels of retirement?
Speaker 4:because you did seven seasons, I think she means like the Financial Aspect that comes with you know quote-unquote being the actual retired from the NFL as far as like a pension or whatever that may be.
Speaker 1:Okay, so yeah, well, if you leave there, I am. I'm sorry, I'm just trying. I got so much to say and I'm not. I'm taking you all the way back. Yeah, so yeah, 20, 29, so I take a leap year, I don't get picked up by a team For a year and then I eventually retire. When you're retired, it's best to be eyes to be vetted. You have to have five years. So that means you get a pension. You get money when you you want to receive that money, but until then you still are not getting any checks, you're not doing anything and because you're tired, that was time to find a new career. I Decided to go. I was wanting to do my MBA. Sat in class I felt like I was too cool, didn't do it, so I just took a year off and I was just spending money, which was bad. I am just going from LA to Miami. I ended up was doing London. I was London for a couple months and my mom's sitting there like what are you doing? Like you need to find something to do.
Speaker 2:Were you having like a midlife crisis?
Speaker 1:That's basically what it was, because I was so used to a routine and having to be in like, oh, I have to do this training, I gotta do this, and then I get ready for this, and then I have so much downtime I'm like I don't know what I want to do in my life. So that's what happened. I'm going on. Then, when they go see what's going on there, la, I think I want to be a writer. This is all true. I'm like I think I want to be a writer. I want to write a sitcom called keg and all that. And I was trying to push that out About it was gonna be like an entourage, but in college type deal. And I'm like, okay, that's out there. Eventually, you know, I linked up with a good financial advisor who just was like, man, hey, you know, let's put this money aside and this is what you need to do to work on yourself. And you know, you know football is not here and I was gonna be here, find out what your true passion. And I was like I'm always one of the computers. People like, well, you know, let's Look into getting you into some computers and finding a way in so you can just be, you know, around something that you're passionate about and Seeing what we can build from that, I was like, okay, so I ended up at Red Hat and Getting a job and doing all that. Answer. We read that at the time. So I put my money away. So I don't get my money from the NFL until I'm like 43, which I put aside.
Speaker 2:I'm you did that on purpose.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I wanted to live my life like. I guess I got to say it's not normal.
Speaker 2:I guess normally, like one of the normal peasants that didn't win a Super Bowl, you can say it, it's fine.
Speaker 4:It's not like that. It's non-professional athletes.
Speaker 1:But that's the thing, that's the crazy thing. Most everybody like people who are hanging around now they are going to get the benefits Later in a life. Where I got it all the way at the beginning of my life was all the money in the center there, so but luckily I switched that off and I like make sure I get something later in my life so I could chill with them and go on islands and stuff like that with them too.
Speaker 2:Here we come.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I just put it away and then I started working. You know, time to time I make sure that my money is all right and well, not time to time I check it, like every other day. To be honest with you, now you're like obsessed. When I was in the league, I didn't check a thing I didn't know about. Like to go back to taxes, irs will fund you, they will fund you, and they don't care that you won a Super Bowl, I'm sure yeah they didn't care. They like we're going to put a stop to all this. You got to pay us some taxes that you haven't paid and I didn't know that you had to pay taxes on your stocks too. Didn't know that. Found that out. So far as money, now it's good, I'm good, but I put a lot of it away where I don't see it until I'm in my 40s. Have a pretty good job now. I mean, if I want to do something like do another investment or, you know, franchisee, I did that.
Speaker 2:We didn't talk about that, but Part two We'll do a part two.
Speaker 1:Part two yeah, everything is just saved and you know people like Brandon, I'm always open to listening to financial, about doing what my if I'm doing anything wrong. That's what I just want to make sure that I'm okay and my kid is okay and everything Right, and I'm not going to paycheck to paycheck.
Speaker 4:And the thing is too. I always say to people I was like you know, we've all made mistakes with money in the past Like, obviously there's degrees you know varying degrees of what the mistakes were and how much they cost but everyone has made mistakes with money. It's just a matter of you can't change the past. It's just a matter of learning from it. That's really all it is.
Speaker 2:And most of us can't make million-dollar mistakes because we don't have millions of dollars, so don't beat yourself up about that.
Speaker 4:I think you did what most 22-year-olds would have done, and then we I mean even, like you know for myself, you know I was forced up, to grow up in like an upper middle class household where we did, you know, talk about money, stuff like that. But if I had the skill and ability to become a professional athlete, I am 99.9% certain that I would have made some dumb you know decisions and dumb purchases. Just to, you know, go on and go be flashy, because that's what young people do often, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we want to be conscious of time, because we're already over. Andre, this has been such a good conversation. We do always want to leave our listeners with a takeaway. What do you want our listeners to leave with today?
Speaker 4:Maybe some advice to that young athlete out there, that young person who might be, you know, the next big thing Don't be afraid to ask questions, because I was.
Speaker 1:I didn't ask enough questions. I wish I would have been asking more questions about where my money is and what it was going on, Because that is critical for your self-knowledge going forward. You know, as you grow with your money and you might find you discover something that you can pivot with some money that you have. So I know it's simple, but don't. I agree with that. Always different.
Speaker 4:Especially when you're working with a financial advisor. You're paying that person, you don't be afraid to ask those questions, because often what happens is that if you're not asking those questions and you don't have an understanding of what's going on with your money, that's where you have those bad financial advisors that take advantage of people. Yeah, so like if you ask that, if you ask questions and that person is hesitant to answer them or they're circling around and not giving you a direct answer, I'm always like that's an immediate red flag.
Speaker 2:Red flag.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's times where I didn't understand some stuff you know I eat, about the taxes, about the stocks and stuff like that, and I was just like, oh, he has my best interest, like okay, I guess I can go with that. And I'm like what, 23, 24 years old at the time, like I didn't understand the meeting. You had the meeting and I didn't come out with any knowledge of that meeting, like you know, which was stunk. But but now you know and you won't have it, you again. Well, it never, would never happen to me again. Pass that down to my son and then we go for men, see where?
Speaker 4:And that's the key part. What you just said as far as the mistakes that you made were learning experiences for you, so that your son doesn't have to make those same mistakes, because you're going to provide him with the information that you wish you would have had at that time.
Speaker 1:What's the same thing my ceiling is, my ceiling is his floor, or something like that. That's, that's what I like, that yeah.
Speaker 2:Because you can teach him from the mistakes that you've made. Build that financial literacy and responsibility in him early, so that that generational wealth can be built, and then he'll pass it down eventually as well. So yeah, he's already ordered.
Speaker 1:He's on it. He's a little hustler, so I love it. He's fine. He's fine away. You want to sell in snacks?
Speaker 2:at school selling selling snacks.
Speaker 1:You go and try. He tried to charge me $150 to detail my car. I'm like that's okay, but I don't need my car detail right now. No, I love it. He's for.
Speaker 2:Hey, listen, he's trying to earn his own money and not steal the gangster. I love a full circle moment.
Speaker 1:He's working for a major that's right Stealing, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for being with us today, andre. This has been such a great conversation, and thank you for your Openness and honesty and for getting us into the details that most, most of us, you know, will never here or understand much about. So thanks for taking us there.
Speaker 1:Appreciate it, thank you, thank you, I enjoyed it.
Speaker 2:Don't forget. Benjamin Franklin said an investment in knowledge pays the best interest. You just got paid Until next time. Thanks for listening to today's episode. We are so glad to have you as part of our sugar daddy community. If you learned something today, please remember to subscribe, rate, review and share this episode with your friends, family and extended network. Don't forget to connect with us on social media at the sugar daddy podcast. You can also email us your questions you want us to answer for our past the sugar segments at the sugar daddy podcast at gmailcom, or leave us a voicemail through our Instagram.
